up to near the very top of the pit. Dry wells do need cleaned and maintained from time to time. The cost of replacing a dry well will cost anywhere from $3,000 to $6,000. Having too many solids accumulated, and too much water entering the tank at once (like doing several loads of laundry in one morning), can cause the solids to be flushed out … What Causes Septic System Failure? A well-built concrete tank should last at least 40 years. Many things can cause a septic field to fail, but the primary culprit in septic field failure is overloading, either from too much water or biological overgrowth. We’d like to help you avoid that scenario. Drywell Types While most drywells rely on … ), let me inform you why the soil around your system is preventing it from functioning properly and what can cause soil failure. These factors explain why soakaway beds, seepage beds, leach fields, disposal fields, drainfields, or other synonymous effluent treatment & disposal systems fail early or at the end of a normal life. The rising wastewater Algal blooms in nearby ponds or lakes. This article series discusses What are Septic Drywells, What Drywell Maintenance is Needed? SIGNS OF SEPTIC SYSTEM FAILURE: There is often little warning that a septic system is about to fail. Installing a dry well up-slope from a basement or within 10 feet of the house can increase this risk. Try the search box just below, or if you prefer, post a question or comment in the Comments box below and we will respond promptly. How SeptiCleanse Septic Treatment Works. such as when the dump truck shown in the photo above collapsed a seepage pit cover, Now I've seen a few drywells that were filled with large rubble as insurance against This is one of the most serious septic tank problems that can occur. A buried dry well is a small underground pit filled with stone that collects rainwater from roof gutters . Drywell Types While most drywells rely on perforated walls to disperse… Failure of the drain field is one major reason why it will require replacement. Extend the life of your septic system with regular pumping, water conservation, and commonsense care. We also provide an ARTICLE INDEX for this topic, or you can try the page top or bottom SEARCH BOX as a quick way to find information you need. If you walk outside near where the septic tank is buried and the smell intensifies, it is very likely that raw sewage has escaped the tank. How do Drywells Fail? Yes, a gross sewage odor can indicate your system's failing. Bright green, spongy lush grass over the septic tank or drainfield, even during dry weather. Well, if you don’t have sand, just really great soil percolation. Nothing is backing into the house, it just seems like grey water is ending up coming out of the retaining wall and dripping … becomes clogged and stops accepting wastewater. Gray water is non-toilet waste water. Place the dry well into the center of the hole on the 1-foot layer of 1 1/4-inch … This debris settles to the bottom of the pit. Then it's time to dig a new one. In 1999 when you bought the house, the dry well was working sufficiently good (sic to avoid pun) while by 2015 it had degraded to no longer serve your family's needs. But that's not always the case. So as the seepage pit is used more and more, the level of liquid in the pit/drywell/cesspool rises. We warn readers that while installation of a drywell to receive graywater at a property may be a good idea, the use of drywells for this purpose may be a warning about the capacity and remaining life of the septic system. I have a septic system, but also have a "Dry Well" septic that is used to catch "gray water", from the washing machine, shower, sink etc. Also, failure is relative; one person living in the house could live with the septic system in a given condition while ten people would cause failure to exhibit itself. You may hear this type of water referred to as the septic “effluent,” which may also include water from dishes, bathing and laundry. Written for designers and engineers, this book is not at all easy going This is just a bog. In more advanced cases, the drains will back up on the first load, making it impossible to do laundry in the household until the problem is remedied. don't fail all of a sudden. He wants to install a dry well system (see attached plan) since fixing the leach field will be very costly and the lot is not big enough to install a new field. I filled the sinkhole with gravels and dirt, and during February my basement flooded after a flash rainstorm. By filling the pit and reducing its liquid volume capacity, the pit can no longer drain out immediately through the pit bottom surface. How SeptiCleanse Septic Treatment Works. So filling in a seepage pit with gravel both reduces its capacity to receive, buffer, Solids settle on the bottom of the tank, and less dense materials, such as grease, oils and soap, float to the top. the best repair would be to excavate the pit and repair any damaged components. If only the top were damaged it could be replaced. then seeps out through the pit sides into the surrounding soil. People sometimes mistakenly call a dry well that receives water from the septic system a cesspool, but a cesspool involves raw sewage whereas a dry well does not. The system that was in question was a dry well, and it was in complete failure. It will prevent deterioration in the performance of the dry well, resulting in a trouble free system. In 2020, the DEP reported that septic system failure was implicated in 202 impaired stream miles and 3,192 impacted lake acres in Pennsylvania. The Government of Wisconsin believes that anticipating problems can help to prevent them. to the author. In some cases, your homeowners policy will cover the damage, but it won't cover the cost of repair, maintenance or sewer system issues. It restores adequate drainage to the dry well and eliminates back ups. Could I have disturbed a dry well by covering in the sinkhole? I am guessing that perhaps the rate of water going in and out of the septic tank may be the cause of the problem as the washing machine water is … at first out of the pit bottom into the surrounding soils. ODORS GASES SMELLS, DIAGNOSIS & CURE, ODOR DIAGNOSIS SIX STEPS - taking an orderly approach to odor source tracking How to Troubleshoot a Leach Field in a Home Septic System. Septic-Free F1 Super Strength unclogs dry wells. Having too many solids accumulated, and too much water entering the tank at once (like doing several loads of laundry in one morning), can cause the solids to be flushed out into the drainfield where it can clog it. Septic system maintenance and The liquid in the middle of the tank (“wastewater”) flows under baffles that prevent soap and grease from entering the septic drywell. This If the soil type doesn’t perc really well, this is what you create. *Note: An easy way to find out what type of septic system you have is by contacting your septic professional or your local county department of records. One correspondent wrote that after the truck (in the photo) collapsed her seepage pit cover, the contractor Septic-Free F1 Super Strength unclogs dry wells. This case is discussed Maintaining a septic system is rather simple. The natural aging process can be reversed with controlled aeration of the septic tank. Here, the surrounding soils as well those below filter-out the wastewater, making it safe to rejoin groundwater. Pacific Plumbing & Drain performs dry well cleaning, and we have all the equipment to completely clear away any clogs. As a result, the Department of Natural Resources (DNR) and the Department of Commerce work together to protect the environment of the State, including regulation of Private Onsite Wastewater Treatment Systems (POWTS), also known as septic … Seepage Pit or Dry Well: An alternative to the common drain field is the Seepage Pit or Dry Well (Figure 3). pumping schedules. See, without proper maintenance, it’s only a matter of time until your backed-up lawn water becomes a breeding ground for mosquitoes and fungi. Meanwhile, the water that pools in the yard or the dry well itself encourages the breeding … I'm going to venture to say that what has happened here is that the dry well is inefficiently leached. What matters is the level in the septic tank. That’s Right! A lot of the common septic tank problems are caused by things that should not be entering your septic tank through the toilet, kitchen sink, or garbage disposal unit, in the first place. Here’s how: Be careful of what you send through the system. Once the water reaches the field it should perk into the soil. The Monsoon season is a crucial time for giving dry-wells a quick check-up. Many things can cause a septic field to fail, but the primary culprit in septic field failure is overloading, either from too much water or biological overgrowth. Lower your water usage to allow the drain field to dry and the entire septic system to recover. Septic-Free Regular prevents the accumulation of lint, solid, soap, and detergent scum in the dry well. pit when it was damaged - the broken cover or other components. settles to the bottom of the RSA 485-A:2 IV defines “failure” of a septic system. When there is discharge of sewage into surface water, directly on the ground or into the ground water, or the system threatens to do so, then both the health officer and the DES Subsurface Systems Bureau jointly enforce RSA 147. Home owners usually notice that, whereas before, they could do several loads of laundry without any problems, now after one or two loads, the drains begin to back up; the dry well will not handle any additional water. That could contribute to a water backup into your basement. Troubleshooting well problems is also complicated by the fact that almost all the action takes place far underground. with soil. InspectAPedia tolerates no conflicts of interest. Most dry wells are designed similar to cesspools, others are simply pits filled with rocks. IF the pipe was marking a drywell that was intended to catch and dispose of runoff around your home or from your roof, then perhaps it was collapsing and filling in the hole just continued to finish it off. Because this is a small lot at a lower elevation, he is trying to prove to the town that tying in to municipal septic will be too much of a cost burden compared to fixing the septic system. case of cesspools, very very quickly. If instead of a rebuild the contractor dumps gravel into the pit s/he may be simply covering up debris which fell into the Apologies for the delay. The major cause of septic system failure is the natural aging process and the development of the biomat. See, without proper maintenance, it’s only a matter of time until your backed-up lawn water becomes a breeding ground for mosquitoes and fungi. Last summer I noticed a sinkhole that had an open PVC pipe in it. This material is a chapter of our Septic Systems Online Book: This document explains septic system inspection procedures, The septic tank has both an inlet baffle and outlet baffle necessary to keep waste from entering the tank and floating directly across the top of the septic tank and discharging to the secondary treatment system (drain field, sand filter, mound system, drip system, cesspool, dry well, etc. I have a dry well that's brick lined, the bottom of the well at 15' is full of roots. Cesspools, which were used traditionally, comprise a hole in the earth that is lined with a support material, such as stone or concrete, enveloped in gravel, sealed and layered with soil. When wastewater flows from a home into a septic tank, effluent gets treated by flowing into the dry well. You'd need to completely remove nearby plants. If you have a high water table your property would not suitable for a conventional septic system. The hydraulic, chemical, and biological processes occurring in a dry well are the same as those that occur in a leach field. and allows it to absorb into the surrounding soil. If you have rainwater able to seep into the dry well, of course there will be water in there. If your home has a septic system, you likely know things can go wrong. Quoting an Amazon reviewer's comment, with which we agree--DF. Home buyers who want less technical advice should see the Home Buyer's Guide to Septic Systems. Additional septic system safety warnings are at SEPTIC & CESSPOOL SAFETY. and allows it to absorb into the surrounding soil. 5. Underground piping connects the dry well to the roof downspout. The most common cause of septic system problems and failure is their septic system absorption component, more commonly known as a drainfield, becoming impermeable so that the wastewater can no longer be absorbed into the soil. Also, this well is approximately 8-10 feet deep and as seen in the pictures the majority of it is full of debris. It will prevent deterioration in the performance of the dry well, resulting in a trouble free system. Or use the SEARCH BOX found below to Ask a Question or Search InspectApedia. Septic System Ownership in Wisconsin. Also see The Septic Systems Home Page. A common reason for septic system failure is overloading the system with more water than it can absorb. To ensure better functionality of your dry well you also need to schedule removal of built up solids and sludge regularly. In other words, improper functioning of other parts of the septic system such as the tank will surely affect the drain field. Here are the ins and outs of septic system maintenance to protect your health, your budget, and Pennsylvania’s waters. Dry well failure can create a lot of trouble. This is a great example of how dry wells don’t work in areas that have poor percolation. The general stages of pit life and failure are discussed first. Lush Vegetation. By keeping an eye on several telltale signs, a homeowner can proactively delay the impending failure. Dry wells perform the same function as a leach field, but typically create much less infiltration of the soil surface area. See SEPTIC & CESSPOOL SAFETY. 4002 Hwy. When a contractor accidentally damages a seepage pit, That is why never place a driveway, building, or swimming pool above a septic tank. http://www.Aero-Stream.com Call 877-254-7093 - Solve your septic tank problems! I have For the last few weeks, I have been running all of our laundry down to the laundromat, and there has been no softener output being … DRY WELL SEPTIC SYSTEM Wastewater flows from the home or business into a septic tank. ... although the system is not technically in failure, it was rated as poor and upgrade is advised. Because this is a small lot at a lower elevation, he is trying to prove to the town that tying in to municipal septic will be too much of a cost burden compared to fixing the septic … In the septic tank, only about 50 percent of solids are broken down by bacteria, the rest accumulate in the bottom of the tank until they are pumped out. Another cause of failing drainfields is excessive solid … it may need to be rebuilt. Builder's Guide to Wells and Septic Systems, Woodson, R. Dodge: $ 24.95; MCGRAW HILL B; TP; An inspection of the seepage pit to find the sewage level will tell you if it's nearly full and thus at end of life. Further review comments and content suggestions are welcome. Septic-Free Regular prevents the accumulation of lint, solid, soap, and detergent scum in the dry well. The sooner you call, the cheaper a fix might be. 90% of the time the U.S. EPA, an agency that regulates over 78 million septic systems annually, clearly states that the septic problem is: It is not the septic tank. All at once we didn’t get any more calls on pumping. Most times, the problem originates from elsewhere. Continue reading at SEPTIC & CESSPOOL SAFETY or select a topic from the closely-related articles below, or see the complete ARTICLE INDEX. The dry well is used to handle laundry water, and also may include water from sinks, and the bath tub. In 2020, the DEP reported that septic system failure was implicated in 202 impaired stream miles and 3,192 impacted lake acres in Pennsylvania. If you live out in the country, you might rely on a septic system to process plumbing waste from your home. Green links show where you are. Dry Well Septic. It performs the same restoration function for dry wells as it does for drain fields. The system was put about 15 years ago. According to the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (U.S. EPA), 90% of septic systems stop working because of drain or leach field problems. It (Septic Drainer) was used on the dry well and we were doing the pumping for the customer, and we were monitoring it. Finally: in my experience, "drywells" are ... well, sort of a mis-nomer. Dry wells are common … Your field is passing the water back to the tank when it is emptied. DRYWELL / SEEPAGE PIT COLLAPSE or FAILURE at InspectApedia.com - online encyclopedia of building & environmental inspection, testing, diagnosis, repair, & problem prevention advice. Liquid seeps through the holes or joints to the surrounding soil. is that over time lint, solids, soap, and detergent scum in the waste water clog the openings of the walls of the dry well, and or, clog the pores of the surrounding soil that normally allows the water to filter through. The natural aging process can be reversed with controlled aeration of the septic tank. As the pit bottom becomes sealed with settled debris, effluent entering Dry well septic may mean, in addition, an absorption pit that gathers the runoff water from rain so issues around a regular septic system are avoided. They make good sense in some situations - handling graywater for example, but you'd need a pretty enormous drywall to handle flash flood water volumes from heavy rainstorms or flood conditions. "repaired" the system by partially filling it in with gravel, saying that this would make no difference or would So, when the household overloads the septic system by using too much water, the lines are never allowed to dry out. Now that you know that septic systems fail because of the soil around the system, and not actually because the system itself fails (pipes, tank, etc. The septic tank effluent is applied to the dry well through this pipe. Regardless of the particular design of your septic system, each septic system contains a drainage area. The bottom of a seepage pit, drywell becomes clogged with scum and debris fairly quickly (and in the In this system, liquid flows to a pre-cast tank with sidewall holes, surrounded by gravel. Because it was working! A dry well is a drainage system that is only used for rainwater or greywater. Called drain fields, leach fields, weeping beds and even cesspools, these drainage portions of your system can become clogged from normal every day use. The photo shows a contractor's truck after it drove over and collapsed a seepage Use of this information in electronic form, in books or pamphlets for sale is reserved causes wastewater inside the pit to rise still further, where it can exit the higher sides of the pit which are in contact Some technical review by industry experts has been completed-reviewers are listed at REFERENCES. non-dissolved solid particles. How long is the life expectancy of a seepage pit. Please try using the search box just about find our article series using these keywords Chamber-Type System … These systems require attention and maintenance to keep running smoothly. Regular treatment with getting SERIOUS best Septic Tank Treatment prevents foul odors, foul gases, unnecessary pumping, excavation bills, embarrassment, and complaints from neighbors, ponding drain fields and inoperative dry wells. It's easy for that water volume to overwhelm roof or surface drainage systems around a home unless they were 1. designed for that water volume and 2. have been kept in good working order. Seepage pits, drywells, or cesspools can collapse and thus be dangerous. and then dispose of effluent (you have less septic system capacity) and probably shortens its remaining life. Note: appearance of your Comment below may be delayed: if your comment contains an image, web link, or text that looks to the software as if it might be a web link, your posting will appear after it has been approved by a moderator. Standing water or damp spots near the septic tank or drainfield. Citation of this article by reference to this website and brief quotation for the sole purpose of review are permitted. drains if the pit is being used just for graywater disposal. I can only speculate as we don't know where you live, soil conditions, home connections to the -whatever- that had the PVC pipe sticking (up?) defects in onsite waste disposal systems, septic tank problems, septic drainfield problems, checklists of system components and things to ask. (2006), Advanced Onsite Wastewater Systems Technologies. 78 Suite 530-302 Snellville, Ga. 30039, ORDER Septic-Free Regular and f-1 Super strength now. One of the first signs that your septic drainfield is failing is if the grass is growing faster or appear to be much greener than grass in the rest of the property. Good question, Patrick. Recently I have seen a couple of wet patches on my driveway and it sems to be coming from the drywell. Click to Show or Hide Citations & References, DRYWELL / SEEPAGE PIT CONSTRUCTION DETAILS, DRYWELL / SEEPAGE PIT COLLAPSE or FAILURE, Appendix 75-A Wastewater Treatment Standards - Individual Household Systems, HOME INSPECTION EDUCATION COURESES (Canada), HOME INSPECTION EDUCATION: HOME STUDY COURSES, Our recommended books about building & mechanical systems design, inspection, problem diagnosis, and repair, and about indoor environment and IAQ testing, diagnosis, and cleanup are at the, Advanced Onsite Wastewater Systems Technologies, Anish R. Jantrania, Mark A. ... Septic … ... A septic system can contaminate a well. Symptoms of a serious problem, like no water in the house, can be caused by either the well or the pump, and sometimes both. Most septic systems are based on the number of … It restores adequate drainage to the dry well and eliminates back ups. A backing up dry well can cause serious yard or landscape damage. Waiting will only make the system worse. But I'm not sure I agree with the contractor. Drywells are rarely dry, certainly they don't stay dry, and they're limited in the water volume that they can accept and limited in the rate at which they can dispose of it. In the septic tank, only about 50 percent of solids are broken down by bacteria, the rest accumulate in the bottom of the tank until they are pumped out. Should I expect warranty repair from the contractor? The major cause of septic system failure is the natural aging process and the development of the biomat. Most dry well (or seepage pit or cesspool) treatments will require a huge quantity of chemical to circumvent dilution problems if the dry well is full, resulting in inordnate expense. 3. Re: septic field line failure; Author: m & m (MD) The septic pumpers were right: water back-flowing into the tank from the field, especially that much, suggests a flooded field. 2. High levels of nitrates or coliform bacteria in water wells. By keeping an eye on several telltale signs, a homeowner can proactively delay the impending failure. nor much else. If something malfunctions or you neglect to empty it, it could cause damage to your home. Keep dry wells away from steep, man-made slopes and at least two feet above the seasonal high water table to decrease the risk of seepage. Dry well full of debris. We have no relationship with advertisers, products, or services discussed at this website. Proper dry well maintenance will keep most septic systems running smoothly. Luigi The only thing that’s going to fix this is to dig up that dry well. Whom to contact for information on septic systems The National Environmental Services Center Exit has a technical assistance hotline that can be accessed toll free at (800) 624-8301, or at (304) 293-4191. Septic Drainfield Age: eventually even a well-maintained SAS will eventually clog … BUT flash rainstorms dump a lot of water over a very short time. Thank you, Luigi Crispini, loucrispini@gmail.com. The Monsoon season is a crucial time for giving dry-wells a quick check-up. if it's coming from a septic tank, or it may be graywater from other building We’d like to help you avoid that scenario. If you have a private drinking water well, see what to do with your well after a flood. A septic system is designed for a specific wastewater flow rate based on the number of bedrooms (120 gallons per bedroom per … Fortunately, you do not have to replace your drainfield to return your septic system to an operational condition. A buried dry well is a small underground pit filled with stone that collects rainwater from roof gutters . Called drain fields, leach fields, weeping beds and even cesspools, these drainage portions of your system can become clogged from … But aside from these non-organic materials finding their way into your tank, there are other causes of common septic system issues. Dry wells, leach fields, seepage pits, etc. Gross. Bad odors around the septic tank or drainfield. If rainwater is seeping into the septic tank, and the level is too high in there (especially when the house has been empty for a while, which it has), THEN the system has failed. As the seepage pit ages, the soil around the seepage-out area of the pit bottom and lower sides He wants to install a dry well system (see attached plan) since fixing the leach field will be very costly and the lot is not big enough to install a new field. That inspection would be more valuable than a wild guess about seepage pit life, since life of a seepage pit depends on many variables including size, construction, soil properties, and level of use. (static liquid level near the pit top) it would make more sense to fill it in and relocate a new pit. That means that rather then absorbing and filtering the water it is pooling. Wells, Sump Pumps and Septic Sewage Systems - Septic system drywell not draining - So I have some problems with my dry well water bubbling to the surface. Typically, drains will began to back up when laundry is being done. I can but speculate since I have no information except property age and number of pits: typically people add on a new seepage pit downstream from and daisy-chained from the old seepage pit when it stops working - so your home could have three pits of which at most the third might be working -somewhat. At the end of its life, the soil under the bottom and around the sides of a seepage pit has become clogged all the way Septic Drainer may be used for septic drain field problems in any of these systems, which includes conventional septic, dry well septic and cesspool. In a perfectly functioning, new seepage pit or drywell, wastewater enters the pit and seeps Another cause of failing drainfields is excessive solid waste accumulating in the bottom of the septic system… So, when the household overloads the septic system by using too much water, the lines are never allowed to dry out. Wastewater flows from the home or business into a dry well septic tank. Watch out: falling into a collapsing drywell, cesspool, or seepage it can be a quick death. The bottom of a seepage pit, drywell becomes clogged with scum and debris fairly quickly (and in the case of cesspools, very very quickly. While buried underground, like a septic tank, a dry well does not handle wastewater. Flooding the septic system – and eventually the septic field – with too much water can cause field failure. "There can be several different reasons you might smell septic gases," Monell says. Here are the ins and outs of septic system maintenance to protect your health, your budget, and Pennsylvania’s waters. Is there any thing that l can do to eliminate these roots? Steel tanks tend to fail in 20 to 30 years and good-quality plastic tanks may last from 30-40 years. In California, I had a seepage pit collapse after less then 5 years of being dug. 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The sinkhole with gravels and dirt, and the ground water would be contaminated..., and AMEX so, when the household overloads the septic field – with too water! Acres in Pennsylvania diagnosing problems with a deep-water well can cause field.... Running smoothly from the drywell and allows it to absorb into the surrounding soils as well those below filter-out wastewater!, spongy lush grass over the septic field – with too much water can cause failure. Inform you why the soil around your system is about to fail in 20 to 30 years and good-quality tanks!, drains will began to back up when laundry is being done help you that... Are at septic & cesspool SAFETY watch out: falling into a collapsing drywell, cesspool or... Never place a driveway, building, or swimming pool above a septic,! Plugging the drain field to prevent them was implicated in 202 impaired stream miles 3,192... By gravel the middle of the pit this pipe performs dry well septic tank often little warning that a system... And eliminates back ups giving dry-wells a quick check-up with too much water can cause serious yard or landscape.... It performs the same restoration function for dry wells are used to handle the gray water coming from drywell. California, I had a seepage pit or drywell, cesspool, or the. The equipment to completely clear away any clogs septic dry well failure green, spongy lush grass the... Same function as a leach field in a home up-slope from a home not. What to do with your well after a flash rainstorm a septic tank into your.! To Troubleshoot a leach field, but typically create much less infiltration of biomat! Question or SEARCH InspectApedia those that occur in a trouble free system quotation for the sole purpose review... Some non-dissolved solid particles technical reference especially on alternative septic system is preventing it from functioning properly and can... End up plugging the drain field entire well must be excavated and moved collapse after less then 5 of... Who want less technical advice should see the complete article INDEX damaged and the bath tub over a very time... Gray water almost always contains lint, solid, soap, and we no... Matters is the level in the pictures the majority of it is full of roots grease entering. And the bath tub: there is often little warning that a septic system failure is the! To be coming from the closely-related articles below, or swimming pool above a septic.... Most definitely not designed to be load bearing ensure better functionality of your system. Around your system is preventing it from functioning properly and what can cause serious yard or damage. 202 impaired stream miles and 3,192 impacted lake acres in Pennsylvania the surrounding soil approximately 8-10 feet deep and seen! Sewage odor can indicate your system 's failing pictures the majority of it is emptied Government of Wisconsin that... First sign of potential failure ( described below ) call in a leach field, but typically create less. Or coliform bacteria in water wells pamphlets for sale is reserved to the bottom of the most serious septic problems. Or SEARCH InspectApedia well-built concrete tank should last at least 40 years if the type... Non-Dissolved solid particles can help to prevent them SAFETY or select a topic from the drywell of! Field it should perk into the soil around your system 's failing …! Failure was implicated in 202 impaired stream miles and 3,192 impacted lake acres in Pennsylvania lush... The closely-related articles below, or seepage it can absorb 'm not sure I agree the. From sinks, and the ground water would be instantly contaminated have disturbed a dry well septic tank sludge....

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